les；　may　be　of　another　mind。　What　do　you　say？　　　Cal。　Somehow　or　other　your　words；　Socrates；　always　appear　to　me　to　be　good　words；　and　yet；　like　the　rest　of　the　world；　I　am　not　quite　convinced　by　them。　　　Soc。　The　reason　is；　Callicles；　that　the　love　of　Demus　which　abides　in　your　soul　is　an　adversary　to　me；　but　I　dare　say　that　if　we　recur　to　these　same　matters；　and　consider　them　more　thoroughly；　you　may　be　convinced　for　all　that。　Please；　then；　to　remember　that　there　are　two　processes　of　training　all　things；　including　body　and　soul；　in　the　one；　as　we　said；　we　treat　them　with　a　view　to　pleasure；　and　in　the　other　with　a　view　to　the　highest　good；　and　then　we　do　not　indulge　but　resist　them：　was　not　that　the　distinction　which　we　drew？　　　Cal。　Very　true。　　　Soc。　And　the　one　which　had　pleasure　in　view　was　just　a　vulgar　flattery：…was　not　that　another　of　our　conclusions？　　　Cal。　Be　it　so；　if　you　will　have　it。　　　Soc。　And　the　other　had　in　view　the　greatest　improvement　of　that　which　was　ministered　to；　whether　body　or　soul？　　　Cal。　Quite　true。　　　Soc。　And　must　we　not　have　the　same　end　in　view　in　the　treatment　of　our　city　and　citizens？　Must　we　not　try　and　make…them　as　good　as　possible？　For　we　have　already　discovered　that　there　is　no　use　in　imparting　to　them　any　other　good；　unless　the　mind　of　those　who　are　to　have　the　good；　whether　money；　or　office；　or　any　other　sort　of　power；　be　gentle　and　good。　Shall　we　say　that？　　　Cal。　Yes；　certainly；　if　you　like。　　　Soc。　Well；　then；　if　you　and　I；　Callicles；　were　intending　to　set　about　some　public　business；　and　were　advising　one　another　to　undertake　buildings；　such　as　walls；　docks　or　temples　of　the　largest　size；　ought　we　not　to　examine　ourselves；　first；　as　to　whether　we　know　or　do　not　know　the　art　of　building；　and　who　taught　us？…would　not　that　be　necessary；　Callicles？　　　Cal。　True。　　　Soc。　In　the　second　place；　we　should　have　to　consider　whether　we　had　ever　constructed　any　private　house；　either　of　our　own　or　for　our　friends；　and　whether　this　building　of　ours　was　a　success　or　not；　and　if　upon　consideration　we　found　that　we　had　had　good　and　eminent　masters；　and　had　been　successful　in　constructing　many　fine　buildings；　not　only　with　their　assistance；　but　without　them；　by　our　own　unaided　skill…in　that　case　prudence　would　not　dissuade　us　from　proceeding　to　the　construction　of　public　works。　But　if　we　had　no　master　to　show；　and　only　a　number　of　worthless　buildings　or　none　at　all；　then；　surely；　it　would　be　ridiculous　in　us　to　attempt　public　works；　or　to　advise　one　another　to　undertake　them。　Is　not　this　true？　　　Cal。　Certainly。　　　Soc。　And　does　not　the　same　hold　in　all　other　cases？　If　you　and　I　were　physicians；　and　were　advising　one　another　that　we　were　competent　to　practise　as　state…physicians；　should　I　not　ask　about　you；　and　would　you　not　ask　about　me；　Well；　but　how　about　Socrates　himself；　has　he　good　health？　and　was　any　one　else　ever　known　to　be　cured　by　him；　whether　slave　or　freeman？　And　I　should　make　the　same　enquiries　about　you。　And　if　we　arrived　at　the　conclusion　that　no　one；　whether　citizen　or　stranger；　man　or　woman；　had　ever　been　any　the　better　for　the　medical　skill　of　either　of　us；　then；　by　Heaven；　Callicles；　what　an　absurdity　to　think　that　we　or　any　human　being　should　be　so　silly　as　to　set　up　as　state…physicians　and　advise　others　like　ourselves　to　do　the　same；　without　having　first　practised　in　private；　whether　successfully　or　not；　and　acquired　experience　of　the　art！　Is　not　this；　as　they　say；　to　begin　with　the　big　jar　when　you　are　learning　the　potter's　art；　which　is　a　foolish　thing？　　　Cal。　True。　　　Soc。　And　now；　my　friend；　as　you　are　already　beginning　to　be　a　public　character；　and　are　admonishing　and　reproaching　me　for　not　being　one；　suppose　that　we　ask　a　few　questions　of　one　another。　Tell　me；　then；　Callicles；　how　about　making　any　of　the　citizens　better？　Was　there　ever　a　man　who　was　once　vicious；　or　unjust；　or　intemperate；　or　foolish；　and　became　by　the　help　of　Callicles　good　and　noble？　Was　there　ever　such　a　man；　whether　citizen　or　stranger；　slave　or　freeman？　Tell　me；　Callicles；　if　a　person　were　to　ask　these　questions　of　you；　what　would　you　answer？　Whom　would　you　say　that…you　had　improved　by　your　conversation？　There　may　have　been　good　deeds　of　this　sort　which　were　done　by　you　as　a　private　person；　before　you　came　forward　in　public。　Why　will　you　not　answer？　　　Cal。　You　are　contentious；　Socrates。　　　Soc。　Nay；　I　ask　you；　not　from　a　love　of　contention；　but　because　I　really　want　to　know　in　what　way　you　think　that　affairs　should　be　administered　among　us…whether；　when　you　come　to　the　administration　of　them；　you　have　any　other　aim　but　the　improvement　of　the　citizens？　Have　we　not　already　admitted　many　times　over　that　such　is　the　duty　of　a　public　man？　Nay；　we　have　surely　said　so；　for　if　you　will　not　answer　for　yourself　I　must　answer　for　you。　But　if　this　is　what　the　good　man　ought　to　effect　for　the　benefit　of　his　own　state；　allow　me　to　recall　to　you　the　names　of　those　whom　you　were　just　now　mentioning；　Pericles；　and　Cimon；　and　Miltiades；　and　Themistocles；　and　ask　whether　you　still　think　that　they　were　good　citizens。　　　Cal。　I　do。　　　Soc。　But　if　they　were　good；　then　clearly　each　of　them　must　have　made　the　citizens　better　instead　of　worse？　　　Cal。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And；　therefore；　when　Pericles　first　began　to　speak　in　the　assembly；　the　Athenians　were　not　so　good　as　when　he　spoke　last？　　　Cal。　Very　likely。　　　Soc。　Nay；　my　friend；　〃likely〃　is　not　the　word；　for　if　he　was　a　good　citizen；　the　inference　is　certain。　　　Cal。　And　what　difference　does　that　make？　　　Soc。　None；　only　I　should　like　further　to　know　whether　the　Athenians　are　supposed　to　have　been　made　better　by　Pericles；　or；　on　the　contrary；　to　have　been　corrupted　by　him；　for　I　hear　that　he　was　the　first　who　gave　the　people　pay；　and　made　them　idle　and　cowardly；　and　encouraged　them　in　the　love　of　talk　and　money。　　　Cal。　You　heard　that；　Socrates；　from　the　laconising　set　who　bruise　their　ears。　　　Soc。　But　what　I　am　going　to　tell　you　now　is　not　mere　hearsay；　but　well　known　both　to　you　and　me：　that　at　first；　Pericles　was　glorious　and　his　character　unimpeached　by　any　verdict　of　the　Athenians…this　was　during　the　time　when　they　were　not　so　good…yet　afterwards；　when　they　had　been　made　good　and　gentle　by　him；　at　the　very　end　of　his　life　they　convicted　him　of　theft；　and　almost　put　him　to　death；　clearly　under　the　notion　that　he　was　a　malefactor。　　　Cal。　Well；　but　how　does　that　prove　Pericles'　badness？　　　Soc。　Why；　surely　you　would　say　that　he　was　a　bad　manager　of　asses　or　horses　or　oxen；　who　had　received　them　originally　neither　kicking　nor　butting　nor　biting　him；　and　implanted　in　them　all　these　savage　tricks？　Would　he　not　be　a　bad　manager　of　any　animals　who　received　them　gentle；　and　made　them　fiercer　than　they　were　when　he　received　them？　What　do　you　say？　　　Cal。　I　will　do　you　the　favour　of　saying　〃yes。〃　　　Soc。　And　will　you　also　do　me　the　favour　of　saying　whether　man　is　an　animal？　　　Cal。　Certainly　he　is。　　　Soc。　And　was　not　Pericles　a　shepherd　of　men？　　　Cal。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　if　he　was　a　good　political　shepherd；　ought　not　the　animals　who　were　his　subjects；　as　we　were　just　now　acknowledging；　to　have　become　more　just；　and　not　more　unjust？　　　Cal。　Quite　true。　　　Soc。　And　are　not　just　men　gentle；　as　Homer　says？…or　are　you　of　another　mind？　　　Cal。　I　agree。　　　Soc。　And　yet　he　really　did　make　them　more　savage　than　he　received　them；　and　their　savageness　was　shown　towards　himself；　which　he　must　have　been　very　far　from　desiring。　　　Cal。　Do　you　want　me　to　agree　with　you？　　　Soc。　Yes；　if　I　seem　to　you　to　speak　the　truth。　　　Cal。　Granted　then。　　　Soc。　And　if　they　were　more　savage；　must　they　not　have　been　more　unjust　and　inferior？　　　Cal。　Granted　again。　　　Soc。　Then　upon　this　view；　Pericles　was　not　a　good　statesman？　　　Cal。　That　is；　upon　your　view。　　　Soc。　Nay；　the　view　is　yours；　after　what　you　have　admitted。　Take　the　case　of　Cimon　again。　Did　not　the　very　persons　whom　he　was　serving　ostracize　him；　in　order　that　they　might　not　hear　his　voice　for　ten　years？　and　they　did　just　the　same　to　Themistocles；　adding　the　penalty　of　exile；　and　they　voted　that　Miltiades；　the　hero　of　Marathon；　should　be　thrown　into　the　pit　of　death；　and　he　was　only　saved　by　the　Prytanis。　And　yet；　if　they　had　been　really　good　men；　as　you　say；　these　things　would　never　have　happened　to　them。　For　the　good　charioteers　are　not　those　who　at　first　keep　their　place；　and　then；　when　they　have　broken…in　their　horses；　and　themselves　become　better　charioteers；　are　thrown　out…that　is　not　the　way　either　in　charioteering　or　in　any　profession…What　do　you　think？　　　Cal。　I　should　think　not。　　　Soc。　Well；　but　if　so；　the　truth　is　as　I　have　said　already；　that　in　the　Athenian　State　no　one　has　ever　shown　himself　to　be　a　good　statesman…you　admitted　that　this　was　true　of　our　present　statesmen；　but　not　true　of　former　ones；　and　you　preferred　them　to　the　others；　yet　they　have　turned　out　to　be　no　better　than　our　present　ones；　and　therefore；　if　they　were　rhetoricians；　they　did　not　use　the　true　art　of　rhetoric　or　of　flattery；　or　they　would　not　have　fallen　out　of　favour。　　　Cal。　But　surely；　Socrates；　no　living　man　ever　came　near　any　one　of　them　in　his　performances。　　　Soc。　O；　my　dear　friend；　I　say　nothing　against　them　regarded　as　the　serving…men　of　the　State；　and　I　do　think　that　they　were　certainly　more　serviceable　than　those